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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.09 21:58:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 09/12/2004 22:02:55
Okay I think you will see in retrospect this has been a really really bad idea. Probably about the worst idea ever in the history of the game to be honest. The game organisers have really really dropped the ball big time and have created the most appalling precedent for future patches and issues. Its clearly totally without balance and it penalises those who actually read and payed attention to "be careful" warnings on patch day and massively rewards people who played without caution or took part in active pvp combat and lost.
You guys have to shut the door on this fast and satisfy everyone now and hope it can all be forgotten long before you ever deploy another big patch.
My advice?
1. Give everyone a free week and say "very sorry but we've screwed up bigtime"
or.
2. Send every account in the game 100m and "a thanks for being patient with us" note.
or.
3. just roll the whole game back to post-exodus state and start again. Give everyone 2 weeks of account time and hope to god the players are as forgiving and supportive of CCP as they generally seem.
This is one of those times that a company needs to admit it has made a really really serious error that will cost a lot of credibility if its not put right.
Now I don't think hundreds and thousands will leave if you don't put it right, but you will lose a lot of good will and faith you previously had.
And thats my opinion as a 18m skill point veteran who knows patchday is always rough and doesn't leave the hanger in anything bigger than a friggy 
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.09 21:58:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Jasmine Constantine on 09/12/2004 22:02:55
Okay I think you will see in retrospect this has been a really really bad idea. Probably about the worst idea ever in the history of the game to be honest. The game organisers have really really dropped the ball big time and have created the most appalling precedent for future patches and issues. Its clearly totally without balance and it penalises those who actually read and payed attention to "be careful" warnings on patch day and massively rewards people who played without caution or took part in active pvp combat and lost.
You guys have to shut the door on this fast and satisfy everyone now and hope it can all be forgotten long before you ever deploy another big patch.
My advice?
1. Give everyone a free week and say "very sorry but we've screwed up bigtime"
or.
2. Send every account in the game 100m and "a thanks for being patient with us" note.
or.
3. just roll the whole game back to post-exodus state and start again. Give everyone 2 weeks of account time and hope to god the players are as forgiving and supportive of CCP as they generally seem.
This is one of those times that a company needs to admit it has made a really really serious error that will cost a lot of credibility if its not put right.
Now I don't think hundreds and thousands will leave if you don't put it right, but you will lose a lot of good will and faith you previously had.
And thats my opinion as a 18m skill point veteran who knows patchday is always rough and doesn't leave the hanger in anything bigger than a friggy
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.09 22:06:00 -
[3]
 Quote:
I didn't lose anything, since I stayed offline during the time. My corp however, lost a week of 250 players dedicating their time to in a concerted effort at attaining a goal. CCP just returned to you two weeks of our effort and that my friend, is not cool.
Yep thats the thing in a nutshell. CCP have to remember they are the referrees in the political and warfare game they host. The reason people love this game is that its a serious economic and military conflict simulator. Hey hey "free money everyone" screws with that simulation whatever the motive is.
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.09 22:06:00 -
[4]
Quote:
I didn't lose anything, since I stayed offline during the time. My corp however, lost a week of 250 players dedicating their time to in a concerted effort at attaining a goal. CCP just returned to you two weeks of our effort and that my friend, is not cool.
Yep thats the thing in a nutshell. CCP have to remember they are the referrees in the political and warfare game they host. The reason people love this game is that its a serious economic and military conflict simulator. Hey hey "free money everyone" screws with that simulation whatever the motive is.
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.09 22:14:00 -
[5]
Quote:
its just a game FFS, get over it.
ppl lost ships to bugs and extreme lag.
they petitioned it since it was obviously that 30sec lags and stuck modules and whatever isnt part of normal gameplay and they got some back.
some ppl sat waiting for 1-2 weeks before their petition even got noted and some of those didnt even have a single ship but the one they lost.
ummm I think you didn't read the notification. Everyone got all lost ships back. Its like that bit of revelations where the dead walk the earth.
Hence people who threw their ships around like confetti get rewarded. Those who played with caution get screwed.Thats the issue here.
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.09 22:14:00 -
[6]
Quote:
its just a game FFS, get over it.
ppl lost ships to bugs and extreme lag.
they petitioned it since it was obviously that 30sec lags and stuck modules and whatever isnt part of normal gameplay and they got some back.
some ppl sat waiting for 1-2 weeks before their petition even got noted and some of those didnt even have a single ship but the one they lost.
ummm I think you didn't read the notification. Everyone got all lost ships back. Its like that bit of revelations where the dead walk the earth.
Hence people who threw their ships around like confetti get rewarded. Those who played with caution get screwed.Thats the issue here.
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.09 22:18:00 -
[7]
Quote:
Remove the insurance money from thoes that dident get it removed or (im probely going to be flamed more than CCP for saying this) rollback the game to patch day and give Exodus a second chance and a chance for a same for all game!
At this stage the rollback to Exodus patchday and free gametime for all accounts is the only 100% fair resolution. Course whether that would ever happen (or even be something most would want to do) is something completely different.
gonna have to be a compromise resolution in some way ...
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.09 22:18:00 -
[8]
Quote:
Remove the insurance money from thoes that dident get it removed or (im probely going to be flamed more than CCP for saying this) rollback the game to patch day and give Exodus a second chance and a chance for a same for all game!
At this stage the rollback to Exodus patchday and free gametime for all accounts is the only 100% fair resolution. Course whether that would ever happen (or even be something most would want to do) is something completely different.
gonna have to be a compromise resolution in some way ...
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.09 22:27:00 -
[9]
problem is Wraeth its so massively unbalancing whichever way you look at. We are all vets generally posting in this thread and we've got battleships and 100s of millions and stuff already. So having another BS pop out of nowhere with insurance too though a sugar-coated chrissie-pressy isn't fabulouslly unbalancing in and of itself.
But if I was a 1 month noob slaving away at the veld trying to earn a BS and just read about all the alliance pvp-losers in Eve being given hundreds of millions of isk as a lovely present from the devs because they were unable to progress a petition queue I would be pretty disincentivised to actually continue mining I have to say.
People who have lost insured battleships have been entirely disproportionately gifted "free money".
This screws with the political/economic and military simulation of the game to this point. And basically adds several billion isk extra cushion to the alliances involved in alliance wars to further separate them from new players trying to compete.
The more you think about it the worse this decision gets on all levels.
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.09 22:27:00 -
[10]
problem is Wraeth its so massively unbalancing whichever way you look at. We are all vets generally posting in this thread and we've got battleships and 100s of millions and stuff already. So having another BS pop out of nowhere with insurance too though a sugar-coated chrissie-pressy isn't fabulouslly unbalancing in and of itself.
But if I was a 1 month noob slaving away at the veld trying to earn a BS and just read about all the alliance pvp-losers in Eve being given hundreds of millions of isk as a lovely present from the devs because they were unable to progress a petition queue I would be pretty disincentivised to actually continue mining I have to say.
People who have lost insured battleships have been entirely disproportionately gifted "free money".
This screws with the political/economic and military simulation of the game to this point. And basically adds several billion isk extra cushion to the alliances involved in alliance wars to further separate them from new players trying to compete.
The more you think about it the worse this decision gets on all levels.
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.09 22:40:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Frozen Light
This is just ridicilous.
So have any of you given a thought to those who lost their ships during a lag in a mission? Now wait, there's no point even to continue this post.
I thank CCP, this one made my day really. I was set back around 14m by loosing my ship to a lag spike during mission and now I'm finally back on track, with millions of loans paid finally back.
if X player ship lost to Y NPC = replace with insurance subtracted
if X player ship lost to Y player ship = don't replace
maybe?
If I don't sound totally sympathetic its because i've been playing for a year a half and lost "a-lot" of ships to all sorts of craziness. As a rule they don't get replaced.
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.09 22:40:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Frozen Light
This is just ridicilous.
So have any of you given a thought to those who lost their ships during a lag in a mission? Now wait, there's no point even to continue this post.
I thank CCP, this one made my day really. I was set back around 14m by loosing my ship to a lag spike during mission and now I'm finally back on track, with millions of loans paid finally back.
if X player ship lost to Y NPC = replace with insurance subtracted
if X player ship lost to Y player ship = don't replace
maybe?
If I don't sound totally sympathetic its because i've been playing for a year a half and lost "a-lot" of ships to all sorts of craziness. As a rule they don't get replaced.
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.09 23:19:00 -
[13]
hmmm mr Full Impact.
What if I had been a lot more "stupid"/"foresighted" than I was and had suicided 10 BS and insurance against lev4 missions in that period and now had 10 free ships and my billion isk that could be used for a contract to set mercs on your corporation and blast your operation to bits because I took offence to your avatar?
Would that be a tad unbalancing to you think?
A little bit unbalancing?
Maybe just maybe that amount of "free money" entering the game might not be a good idea perhaps?
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.09 23:19:00 -
[14]
hmmm mr Full Impact.
What if I had been a lot more "stupid"/"foresighted" than I was and had suicided 10 BS and insurance against lev4 missions in that period and now had 10 free ships and my billion isk that could be used for a contract to set mercs on your corporation and blast your operation to bits because I took offence to your avatar?
Would that be a tad unbalancing to you think?
A little bit unbalancing?
Maybe just maybe that amount of "free money" entering the game might not be a good idea perhaps?
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.09 23:28:00 -
[15]
Quote:
I totally agree. At about just under 5 mil SP I'm just starting to take my first tentative steps into 0.0.. I could have gotten my BS and headed out there a lot sooner but I tried to play it right, making sacrifices and making sure I had the skills and knew what I was doing before I made that jump, in addition to making sure I had the financial werewithal to cover my losses if (or when  ) I ran into trouble out there. I want to be good at this game and love the 'real risk/reward' aspect of it.. hence I generally have a lot of respect for some of these vets in here who have excelled in that environment. It kinda sucks how this decision screws them over IMO.
Personally it really cheapens all that work and sacrifice that I put in to try and make a well-planned and researched foray into 0.0 and hopefully some of the higher-end content of this game.. I mean why didn't I just train up to fly a raven at 1.5 mil SP and set autopilot into some chokepoint.. there's no risk right? 
Yep mate, your the guy I would like them to listen to. Your playing the game honestly and in the right spirit and in the future you'll be up there with the best competing and defining the politics and struggles of next year.
And its your enthusiasm and spirit that will get you there.
Not "free money" deposited into your hanger because because threw your ships away.
Please keep trying and learning the game properly.
Respect.
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.09 23:28:00 -
[16]
Quote:
I totally agree. At about just under 5 mil SP I'm just starting to take my first tentative steps into 0.0.. I could have gotten my BS and headed out there a lot sooner but I tried to play it right, making sacrifices and making sure I had the skills and knew what I was doing before I made that jump, in addition to making sure I had the financial werewithal to cover my losses if (or when ) I ran into trouble out there. I want to be good at this game and love the 'real risk/reward' aspect of it.. hence I generally have a lot of respect for some of these vets in here who have excelled in that environment. It kinda sucks how this decision screws them over IMO.
Personally it really cheapens all that work and sacrifice that I put in to try and make a well-planned and researched foray into 0.0 and hopefully some of the higher-end content of this game.. I mean why didn't I just train up to fly a raven at 1.5 mil SP and set autopilot into some chokepoint.. there's no risk right?
Yep mate, your the guy I would like them to listen to. Your playing the game honestly and in the right spirit and in the future you'll be up there with the best competing and defining the politics and struggles of next year.
And its your enthusiasm and spirit that will get you there.
Not "free money" deposited into your hanger because because threw your ships away.
Please keep trying and learning the game properly.
Respect.
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.09 23:44:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Remo Williams
To all of you Bob whiny arses, I got (0)zero (for those who can't count) ships back. My point is that you guys sound like the biggest group of skirt wearing beatches in this thread. I am sure all of your whining will be rec'd with a hearty whoopee-dittee-doo. I think its funny that you guys are crying like carebears so bad.
As to the thread, I may disagree with it. But again, I can't get past the massive outcries from BoB.
Change the name to BaB....Big Arse Babies...ROFL
Just out of interest Remo
Care to comment on the problem with this free isk handout being unbalanced in favour of established battleship-owning suiciders and disadvantaging newbie players slaving away for their first big ship?
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.09 23:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Remo Williams
To all of you Bob whiny arses, I got (0)zero (for those who can't count) ships back. My point is that you guys sound like the biggest group of skirt wearing beatches in this thread. I am sure all of your whining will be rec'd with a hearty whoopee-dittee-doo. I think its funny that you guys are crying like carebears so bad.
As to the thread, I may disagree with it. But again, I can't get past the massive outcries from BoB.
Change the name to BaB....Big Arse Babies...ROFL
Just out of interest Remo
Care to comment on the problem with this free isk handout being unbalanced in favour of established battleship-owning suiciders and disadvantaging newbie players slaving away for their first big ship?
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.10 00:55:00 -
[19]
I just hope some people lose the anti-Bob prejudice and start listening. It is surely one hell of a load of money just shot into the game and surely one hellova bad precedent to set. It just makes me a laugh a bit with the irony of all the times I've sat in a ship jumping into a fleet battle and got killed with my mates before the screen loaded and none of us petitioned. Such things were just a fact of life and you got back on the horse before. It used to be easier living with such things knowing that *nobody* got handouts - now however, dear o dear - talk about a petitioners charter for the future.
This whole thing has been a roll-back, and a partially-applied and unbalanced one at that. Just because its the big-name pvp-combat vets complaining about it don't think for one moment they are one's primarily disadvantaged by the alliances just being a few hundred billion isk richer tonight.
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.10 00:55:00 -
[20]
I just hope some people lose the anti-Bob prejudice and start listening. It is surely one hell of a load of money just shot into the game and surely one hellova bad precedent to set. It just makes me a laugh a bit with the irony of all the times I've sat in a ship jumping into a fleet battle and got killed with my mates before the screen loaded and none of us petitioned. Such things were just a fact of life and you got back on the horse before. It used to be easier living with such things knowing that *nobody* got handouts - now however, dear o dear - talk about a petitioners charter for the future.
This whole thing has been a roll-back, and a partially-applied and unbalanced one at that. Just because its the big-name pvp-combat vets complaining about it don't think for one moment they are one's primarily disadvantaged by the alliances just being a few hundred billion isk richer tonight.
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.10 02:08:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Fedaykin Naib
GJ CCP im sure this will save alot of time and get some more of those bugs worked out intsead.
To the rest of ya. Eve is a game, and someone has control over the game, being CCP, if you dont like it that they make all the rules, then dont play the game. Whining aint going to get you anywhere
Sorry to say it Fedaykin, but the facts argue differently. 4000 petitions = free isk for people that lose ships regardless of the circumstance.
Pretty clear cut.
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.10 02:08:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Fedaykin Naib
GJ CCP im sure this will save alot of time and get some more of those bugs worked out intsead.
To the rest of ya. Eve is a game, and someone has control over the game, being CCP, if you dont like it that they make all the rules, then dont play the game. Whining aint going to get you anywhere
Sorry to say it Fedaykin, but the facts argue differently. 4000 petitions = free isk for people that lose ships regardless of the circumstance.
Pretty clear cut.
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.11 02:08:00 -
[23]
I don't what to go over all the stuff thats already been said. Pointless really. But I just can't get over the influx of money into the game issue. Sure in the grand scheme of things (ie total isk value of total number of corps in the game etc) it might be relatively small. But. Look at one specific example: tech2 BPO auctions. Everyone knows that just about the only way a corp is ever realistically going to get one is to buy it at auction from whatever lucky research alt got it right?
So the amount of spare money in the hands of particular groups of players will determine what the likely prices are.
k? So now we have certain select groups of players (ie alliance pvpers with poor war records) suddenly having a few hundred million isk each extra. If they pooled that they have enough isk to massively overbid an empire dwelling and careful production corp that played safely in exodus and stewarded its resources and cash and listened to GM warnings.
So the next Deimos auction runs to 9billion or something totally out of the reach of honest and careful workaday players.
That is an impact on the game economy and the economic simulation environment. Theres no real way to argue against that I think.
There are things in eve that are in limited supply. Tech2 BPO's notably. Thus new money into the system pushes inflation and directly disadvantages those players who didn't lose ships to bugs and get multiple petition rewards etc.
I don't want to sound like a broken record but its an issue and shouldn't really be laughed off.
Of course I like everyone else I imagine can see the problem the devs and gms have here. But there absolutely had to be a better way. Challenge for CCP and community is surely to find it before this situation bites everyone in the ass next patch day. As a player of Eve I really don't want my stuck petitions buried under the weight of 12727274838 replenishment petitions (because thats how it worked last time).
Hope this makes sense to people.
Star Fraction
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Jasmine Constantine
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Posted - 2004.12.11 02:08:00 -
[24]
I don't what to go over all the stuff thats already been said. Pointless really. But I just can't get over the influx of money into the game issue. Sure in the grand scheme of things (ie total isk value of total number of corps in the game etc) it might be relatively small. But. Look at one specific example: tech2 BPO auctions. Everyone knows that just about the only way a corp is ever realistically going to get one is to buy it at auction from whatever lucky research alt got it right?
So the amount of spare money in the hands of particular groups of players will determine what the likely prices are.
k? So now we have certain select groups of players (ie alliance pvpers with poor war records) suddenly having a few hundred million isk each extra. If they pooled that they have enough isk to massively overbid an empire dwelling and careful production corp that played safely in exodus and stewarded its resources and cash and listened to GM warnings.
So the next Deimos auction runs to 9billion or something totally out of the reach of honest and careful workaday players.
That is an impact on the game economy and the economic simulation environment. Theres no real way to argue against that I think.
There are things in eve that are in limited supply. Tech2 BPO's notably. Thus new money into the system pushes inflation and directly disadvantages those players who didn't lose ships to bugs and get multiple petition rewards etc.
I don't want to sound like a broken record but its an issue and shouldn't really be laughed off.
Of course I like everyone else I imagine can see the problem the devs and gms have here. But there absolutely had to be a better way. Challenge for CCP and community is surely to find it before this situation bites everyone in the ass next patch day. As a player of Eve I really don't want my stuck petitions buried under the weight of 12727274838 replenishment petitions (because thats how it worked last time).
Hope this makes sense to people.
Star Fraction
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